Part 1: The Introduction
Part 2: Bill Jelen & Hiran de Silva
Part 3: Craig Hatmaker & Rob Collie 1
Part 4: Craig Hatmaker & Rob Collie 2
Part 5: Jordan Goldmeier & Carl Arriaza
Part 6: Szilvia Juhasz & Closing Comments
Yesterday, I introduced a short series of blogposts investigating the question: Where are Excel and Google spreadsheet headed?
Today we have the un-edited responses of Hiran de Silva and Bill Jelen.
HIRAN de SILVA
Hiran de Silva
Even though Google spreadsheets, and Excel on the cloud, are designed for ‘many users to update a single spreadsheet from many devices/locations’ we’re still working with SINGLE spreadsheets … as if the work done on it is an end in itself, for and by one person.
But as we all know, every spreadsheet in an organisation actually forms part of a larger information process involving many people, in many departments and functions, in many locations, and involving enterprise systems too.
So – if we’re looking for productivity – what we really we need is the ability to, not just share the same spreadsheet but to ‘share the same data among many spreadsheet models, used by many people/departments/functions, and easily integrate with enterprise data’.
Neither Office 365 nor Google spreadsheets can achieve this. It’s not a design-goal of either.
However, Excel with VBA/ADO/SQL can, and does.
So, my answer to where do I think the present trend is going? As long as we continue to think of spreadsheets as a platform to perform ‘single-user stand-alone’ tasks (in the traditional paper spreadsheet paradigm) either will serve that purpose.
But only with Excel (with VBA/ADO/SQL) can we move up to another spreadsheet paradigm. This will only be accessible to those brave enough to change how we think of spreadsheets. (I am ruling out Excel Services as an option as it’s beyond the users’ reach).
Bill Jelen, Mr Excel
Bill Jelen, Mr Excel
Mr Excel: Google spreadsheets will never have VBA, so it will never be able to completely replace Excel. In my opinion, Google spreadsheets is trying to cover 80% of the functionality in Excel. Since most people don’t use more than 20% of Excel, then 80% is “good enough”. But the power users will always need the full Excel suite.
Oz: So, you don’t think that Google is trying to knock Excel off the throne.
Mr Excel: Maybe they are trying to kill Office, but it could be that Google would be happy getting the 60% of people who don’t use the power features.
That is a lot of people to whom to display ads.
SUMMARY & COMMENTS
Both Bill and Hiran paint a context from which to answer the question.
Bill comes from a very straightforward business perspective, and Hiran challenges how we think about spreadsheets. As we’ll see in later responses, there’s a recurring inquiry about how we think about spreadsheets and the role of spreadsheet users. We have to back up and deal with more than tips-&-tricks. A dynamic SUMIFS function, for example, is in service of a much bigger solution. Maybe they’re trying to manage an inventory of 100,000 parts in 3 warehouses.
So, who cares if Google adds SUMIFS to it’s spreadsheet? The more interesting question seems to be “what are we trying to accomplish overall?” Hiran is in the world of managing enterprise level data using Excel as the front-end of a relational database, taking advantage of the strengths of both the database and the spreadsheet. Therefore, in Hiran’s estimation, Google spreadsheet can’t compete because Excel with VBA is the only way to go. And Bill says that Google will never have VBA.
Agree? Disagree? Please comment below.
TOMORROW
IT Director Craig Hatmaker chimes in
So where are they going? Microsoft is following Google’s lead. Microsoft has NEVER shown any real imagination; but, it has always recognized a good idea when one comes along and ruthlessly responded to competitive threats. So watch Google to see where Microsoft will go.
and Power Pivot Pro Rob Collie replies.
This whole “web Excel” thing is complicated by the difference between Authors/Power Users on one hand vs. Consumers/Casual Users on the other. Bill [Jelen] argues, quite convincingly, that there is only one spreadsheet product that matters, and that’s the desktop “fat client” Excel. But I’d like to add the clause “for Authors/Power Users” to that argument. Casual Users actually are probably better off with the web versions. And Consumers of finished spreadsheets are DEFINITELY better off with the web version.
I was surprised by the list referencing VBA because I have been laboring under the misapprehension that Excel in the cloud precluded it, but I may be misinformed.
Likewise, I was surprised by the absence of mention of MDX and DAX, the two tools that most advance the sharing of enterprise data in multidimensional and tabular models, let alone the introduction of powerquery, enabling mashups against the enterprise store.
Loved the insights provided here.
amg49 Amy, thanks for commenting. This conversation has exploded in a lot of directions.
About 30 minutes from now part 3 will be posted and Rob Collie of powerpivotpro mentions PowerPivot. So, you’re right on.
Also. VBA isn’t in the cloud and I haven’t heard talk of it being included. Microsoft has added more of the native Excel features to ExcelWebApp. It seems, however, that JavaScript is the way that people like brucemcpherson have been closing the gap between Excel and the web.
It’s been an interesting ‘battle’ for sure! Hiran makes a good point, but leaves off a very important piece of the puzzle – SharePoint will allow the same data to be shared, although there are many strings attached as well as drawbacks. Google spreadsheets were groundbreaking for sure, but I like the Excel web app better. I am, afterall, like Bill, in that I think the only app that *really* matters is desktop Excel. 🙂
I love what Craig said, “So watch Google to see where Microsoft will go.” It’s a sad but true point (to an extent). And like Rob, I think there definitely is a market for web spreadsheets. It’s not one flavor anymore, especially with everything spreadsheets can do these days. In the end I agree overall – Google will never overcome Microsoft, but not just for VBA, but everything else the app does well.
Zack Barresse Thanks for commenting.
I like how you describe Excel as an app. I detail that more in Part 3 https://datascopic.net/excel-and-google-spreadsheet-3/
But I wonder what “web spreadsheets” would look like. There are some that claim to be web-based Excel-killers but they’re woefully weak and/or expensive.
ExcelWebApp is hugely promising in that regard. They’ve added the droplists and other validation features, and slicers are available, too. Do you think VBA will translate over, as amg49 questions? Can it?
OzData Zack Barresse amg49 I don’t think VBA will ever make it to the web. In looking at the language it was implemented more or less around the peak of the VB-era, which has been a while. As much as I’d like VBA to work on the web app, I honestly don’t think we’ll see it. I’ll cross my fingers but won’t hold my breath. 🙂
Microsoft is making investments into Javascript (i.e. Apps for Office, aka Agaves) more than they are with VBA, which is basically just getting an updated OM every release. I think if we see anything it will be some integration with Javascript. The technology is there, even to implement it in desktop Excel, it would all run through the CLR after all, so it’s entirely possible.
The Excel web app is definitely making leaps and bounds. I can’t tell you how thrilled I was when data validation made it into the release! The other nice thing is, since it’s a server-based app, they can update it whenever they want. It’s a software paradigm shift from “the usual”, but is more in-line with today’s generation of software – i.e. to the cloud. No more expensive release cycles, printing disc’s, not to mention the whole updates debacle, security issues, ongoing support, etc. I’d predict we’ll continue seeing heavy development in the Excel web app.
Zack Barresse OzData amg49
The on-the-fly updating is where I kinda understand the subscription model. It’s a hassle but I liked waking up one morning and suddenly there were dropdown lists available in ExcelWebApp. One alternative was an HTML form hooked into a MySQL database via PHP. YUK!
So, it’s nice to have the updates happen when they happen, as opposed to the major-release rigmarole that you describe.
And you’re one more voice saying JavaScript is the future. My ears are open, sir.
I’m surprised to hear Bill say that Google Spreadsheets will never have VBA. I haven’t done much with it personally, but I thought Google’s Apps Script was a similar solution. Maybe it’s not as robust?
https://developers.google.com/apps-script/
davidhinckley It’d be good to hear what @MrExcel would say about that directly. I’ve done very little with Apps Script and gadgets but I can’t speak with any kind of authority. What I did discover was some basic things that I could do in Excel very easily but would have to program in Google spreadsheet.
One example was cell validation where F5 cannot be greater than B5. Easy to do in Excel. At the time it wasn’t part of native GS. So, I left it alone.
Zack Barresse OzData amg49 I still haven’t found a really big need for VBA on the Web App because as long as I can switch back and forth seamlessly between desktop Excel and Excel Web App, I can leave all the heavy lifting / VBA shenanigans ON the desktop. The Web App is a great place to then distribute the end product(s) produced by said VBA – the high level, nicely formatted executive reports, the dashboards, the pivot tables for end users to play with to their heart’s content. None of those things require VBA once the outputs are published online. Excel Web App is also good for ‘wow factor’ because many people still don’t know it even exists. Many people, meaning 9 out of 10 clients I talk to regularly. That also goes for PowerPivot but I digress as usual.
Keep up the good work, Oz. This is great stuff.
xszil Zack Barresse OzData amg49
I hear you. The downside is the Excel web app is *not* the same as the desktop version, as you say, which will always be a setback for those looking for a common experience across both platforms. Not just because of (the lack of) VBA. And remember, this is just one aspect not supported by the web app. Like shapes for instance, which are used often as well and still aren’t supported. I’ll bet you a dollar there’s some form of automation in the works for the web app though. With Microsoft’s deep commitment to EWA I think we’ll continue to see advancements for the better.
The draw for VBA support in EWA is the use of current/past solutions on the desktop which could work/run in the web app. You could use desktop or the web with the same solutions. There’s a definite draw there. There’s no denying the power of VBA/automation and simply having that available for the web app presents a host of opportunities which would only benefit the (Microsoft) customer base. OTOH *not* having VBA can sometimes be a blessing, as you’ve stated. 🙂
If we look at online capabilities and, for example, Power Pivot, there’s no free, web-based/hosted Power Pivot site. Pivotstream.com hosts your Power Pivot workbooks, although it’s anything but cheap, and they bring in quite the sum of money. This is one example of a web-based need. I think automation will resemble something like this. Whoever does it best, first, will have very happy customers. Of course Microsoft arguably is now offering Power BI, showing continued investment to the cloud.
I hear you about the wow factor. Between that and SkyDrive I always get a lot of “really?” or “I didn’t know that” lol.
xszil Zack Barresse OzData amg49 ExcelWebApp was a huge addition. Mac users and users of ancient versions of Excel can have access to things like slicers and timelines … as long as someone with Excel 2010 or 2013 does the initial development.
I’m loving ExcelWebApp.
The fact that you don’t feel an urgency to load VBA on the web is a theme that’s coming through to me in these interviews: our needs are so so so vastly different. After 15 years of working with Excel, I’ve rarely touched databases. My clients want apps and dashboards. Every time I go to teach myself databases, the phone rings and it’s someone wanting a web-scraper or an inventory system.
It’s fascinating and beautiful that our community has such a wide range of needs and skills.
In the corporate
world, Excel is dead, but it’s going to take a while for everyone to figure
that out.
I work in a Fortune
500 company in the IT department. I am one of the Excel gurus here. I have made
Excel spreadsheets do things they were never intended to do. Excel and VBA is
an amazing platform that I have loved developing in VBA for years.
But Excel has a
problem. It was designed to be a single user tool to replace ledger sheets and
calculators. For the most part, it still is. That is not the tool we need these
days.
Today we need easy
to create databases with web interfaces, reporting, and workflow capability
that have mobile and social interfaces. They need to be as flexible and easy to
set up as Excel, but as modern as Google Docs, Tableau, Twitter, and Facebook combined.
These tools exist
out there, but it is taking a while for the corporate world to figure it out.
Wait 5 years, and I think our dominant use of Office is going to flip to cloud
providers. But not things like Google Docs. We will be moving to cloud platform
as a service providers. My money is on the Salesforce.com Platform. Think of
the business advantage of being the first to discover Lotus-123 or Excel. I
think that advantage exists for those who are early adopters of cloud
platforms.
Will Excel
completely go away in the future? No, but it will stop being the desktop app of
choice in corporate environments. I still use the Calculator app on occasion
too, but web platforms like Salesforce are transforming spreadsheets into
full-fledged business processes. Don’t be the last to get the Tweet.
Mike Rudzinski Very bold statements, Mike.
I think you set up a very specific context to make your case. Some corporations may have effectively killed off spreadsheets. But every time one of these Excel-killers (e.g., SalesForce) is touted we have to have a conversation about For Whom, How and Why?
SalesForce is outstanding on the front-end. However, the back-end is pure hell to configure and manage. It’s like comparing a helicopter to a Toyota Camry. The helicopter may be “better” as in “quicker.” But who’s gonna get licensed to fly it? Who’s gonna maintain it? Where is it going to be parked? When there’s an emergency to go somewhere, how long do we wait for the licensed pilot?
Is that anti-helicopter, anti-SalesForce or an apologia for spreadsheets? Hardly. It’s a statement that not every entity is in a position to take advantage of something that we may agree would generate the best output and highest quality. It may cost too much in terms of just getting the darned thing off the ground.
Hey, if you have the wherewithal to ditch spreadsheets completely, more power to you. There are plenty of folks who’ve bragged to me that they manage data and haven’t used a spreadsheet in 5 or 10 years. One person said, “When things get too complicated, I just program something in C++.” I’m not mad at him. Good for him. But for every 1 of him, there’s probably 50 people running a small to medium-sized business on spreadsheets.
Being a freelancer has put me in touch with business’ concerns of:
1. Can we afford it?
2. Can we be without person X while they go train?
3. Can we risk trying something out and discover that it doesn’t work for our needs?
4. Can we survive the upheaval of integrating something new?
5. Will people use the solution once it’s been launched?
At $90 most businesses can get Excel working good enough and if someone needs support, they’ve got a friend, an aunt, 3 cousins, a co-worker, or an online forum for help.
OzData Mike Rudzinski
I agree with a lot of what you said Mike, and I agree cloud-based solutions are the key to the future and we’ll see the trend go that way. But Excel is not dead, not even close. I’ve worked with many Fortune 500/100 companies and the brunt of the workload is still done in Excel, which is seen as a necessary business tool. It is the quintessential spreadsheet application, there’s no denying it.
If we look at where Excel has gone, which is from a standalone desktop application, to what it is now, you may not even recognize her. 🙂 What we call the “New” Excel are offerings like Power Pivot, Power Query and the rest of the Power BI suite. With full SharePoint integration the tools at our disposal has increased exponentially. We can do everything you described today, in Excel. The only downside is it will exclude a lot of mom-n-pop shops and other small businesses, as it requires an O365 E3 subscription or higher.
Things will most certainly change, of that one can only agree, and the needs users have will ebb and flow with technology. Excel is leading technology through the push to cloud-based solutions already, those solutions just aren’t well known yet. Salesforce et. al. have pushed the technology need for sure. Excel is now a serious BI tool, and in a world of self-service BI becoming more prevalent I think we’ll see an increase not only in technology, but in Excel-related technologies as well. Microsoft is pushing hard in this direction. Excel is not what it started out to be all those years ago, it has evolved quite a bit.